South African Skeptics

Taking God out of school - first episode....

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Offline Faerie

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I am utterly delighted at this:  (I am quoting as Beeld newspaper requires registration for reading online)

Quote
'Geen plek vir God in skole'
SONJA CARSTENS Dinsdag 02 September 2014   
Leerlinge aan die Laerskool Garsfontein, een van die skole wat in die hofaansoek ter sprake kom. Foto: Wayne Coetzee
 Dit is ongrondwetlik vir enige openbare skool soos omskryf in die Skolewet om een geloof uit te sonder en voor te staan.
— Die Hofstukke ’n Organisasie vra die hooggeregshof in Johannesburg om ses skole te verbied om hulself onder meer Christenskole te noem, leerlinge toe te laat om Christelike liedere te sing en Christelike waardes en norme voor te staan.
Hans Pietersen sê in hofstukke sy hofaansoek is hoegenaamd nie ’n heksejag op Christenskap of enige ander geloof nie, maar vir die beskerming van alle leerlinge se grondwetlike regte.
As voorsitter van die organisasie vir godsdiensonderrig en demokrasie vra Pietersen die hof om verskeie Christelike gebruike en verwysings by die ­Laerskool Randhart in Alberton, die Laerskool Baanbreker in Boksburg, die Laerskool Garsfontein in Pretoria, die Hoërskool Linden in Johannesburg, die Hoërskool Oudtshoorn en die Langenhoven Gimnasium in Oudtshoorn met ’n interdik te verbied en dit ongrondwetlik te verklaar.
Dié organisasie vra die hof om te verklaar dat die ministers van basiese onderwys en van justisie en korrektiewe dienste strydig optree met die nasionale beleid vir godsdiens en onderwys wat in September 2003 gepubliseer is.
In hofstukke word aangevoer dit is ongrondwetlik vir enige openbare skool soos omskryf in die Skolewet om een geloof uit te sonder en voor te staan tydens godsdiensaktiwiteite by die skool of om hulself met ’n geloof te vereenselwig.
Dit is ongrondwetlik om van enige leerling te verwag om direk of indirek aan te dui of hulle enige geloof voorstaan en indien wel, watter geloof of om inligting by te hou van watter gelowe ook al ondersteun word.

Dit is ook ongrondwetlik om leerlinge te isoleer op grond van die godsdienste wat hulle voorstaan.
 
Hans Pietersen, voorsitter van die organisasie wat die ses skole hof toe sleep. Foto: Herman Verwey
 Volgens Pietersen word daar weens dié gebruike in skole inbreuk gemaak op verskeie konstitusionele regte van leerlinge.
Dit sluit in hul reg op gelykheid omdat daar gediskrimineer word teen leerlinge op grond van hul geloofsoortuigings en kultuur; menswaardigheid omdat hulle gebrandmerk word as hulle nie deelneem aan godsdiensgebruike nie; vryheid en sekuriteit omdat dié leerlinge op ’n minderwaardige wyse behandel word wat hul psigologiese integriteit skaad; en geloofsvryheid.
Die organisasie voer aan die aansoek is in openbare belang, veral in belang van kinders.
Sy lede, wat die getuienis vir die aansoek verskaf, is Afrikaanssprekendes wie se kinders in die onderskeie skole aan Christelike praktyke onderwerp is.
Volgens Pietersen vra die organisasie nie dat koste teen die skole in dié aansoek wat volgens hom in openbare belang is, toegestaan word nie. Die organisasie se regspan tree pro bono vir hulle op.
Paul Colditz, uitvoerende hoof van die Federasie van Beheerliggame van Suid-Afrikaanse Skole (Fedsas), het gesê hulle vergader Vrydag met die betrokke skole om te besluit of hulle die aansoek sal teenstaan en hoe dit gehanteer word. “Die aansoek raak elke openbare skool, ook die skole met ’n ander godsdienstige etos as dié van Christenskap. Sou die saak verder gevoer word, sal dit waarskynlik weens dit wat gevra word in die konstitusionele hof beland.”

I note my old alma-mater has been quoted, and back in the 70's it was bad enough - I recall being sent to the head master's office and getting a "pak-slae" because I used the term "ek is in die sewende hemel" after some brat reported my slander to a teacher. Never mind context or that it was proper afrikaans describing a state of mind and feeling of joy.


Offline Rigil Kent

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Excellent news! The name Hans Pietersen rings a bell ... wasn't he interviewed by Freek Robinson some yeras ago wrt some similar efforts?
You know it's cold outside when you go outside and it's cold.


Offline Brian

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Ja but the battle lines are being drawn...... >:D Julle vat mos nou aan ons volk se identiteit en ons IS die uitverkorenes ....ring a bell anyone?
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Offline BoogieMonster

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Quote from: Brian
Julle vat mos nou aan ons volk se identiteit en ons IS die uitverkorenes

Steve, is that you?!

Quote from: Faerie
I am utterly delighted at this

Jy's sommer weer in die sewende hemel.

Look, I did not suffer the morning preachings of whomever wanted to save us that particular monday gladly. But suffered it I did all the same. Actually one of my worst experiences in school was being hauled into the theatre to experience the gruelling punishment of some-or-the-other gospel band.

Then you run into the fun of seeing the headmaster denounced not because they're forcing religious shit down your throat, but because he's forcing the WRONG religious shit down your throat. This was back when "gospel" was a swear word around afrikaans christians.

I can already envision the groundswell of rage that's about to be unleashed on RSG because of this.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 16:05:00 pm by BoogieMonster »
"Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground, Silly monkeys, give them thumbs, they make a club and beat their brother down. How they survive, so misguided, is a mystery. Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here" - Tool


Offline Mefiante

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Quote from: Mefiante
I am utterly delighted at this
Is nie ekke nie!

Alhoewel, nou dat ek dit oorweeg… :)

'Luthon64
"Sensitive" people are now carefully examining the entire universe, trying to find something to be "offended" at. It won't stop until such time as the "offenders" learn to stop apologizing, and saying "freck off" instead. — brianvds, The ShoutBox Classics, 02/07/2018.


Offline BoogieMonster

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Quote from: Mefiante
I am utterly delighted at this
Is nie ekke nie!

Alhoewel, nou dat ek dit oorweeg… :)

Eish, brainfart... Apologies.
"Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground, Silly monkeys, give them thumbs, they make a club and beat their brother down. How they survive, so misguided, is a mystery. Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here" - Tool


Offline Rigil Kent

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Offline The Vulcan

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Awesome! Dit maak wraggies my dag, bly daar is mense wat daadwerklik iets doen om bietjie te veg vir groter gelykheid in ons land - ek meen ek het geen probleem as 'n individu wil bid of kruisies, snaakse rokkies en hoedjies wil dra nie, en het even nie regtig so groot probleem as iemand hul gode met jou wil deel nie - dis die institusionele wyse waarop geloof oor 'n groep afgedwing word wat regtig verkeerd is.


Ander sake wat ek hoop in die (hopelik) nabye toekoms te sien is bv die wetsontwerp rondom huwelik sereomonies - huidiglik, so ver ek dit verstaan, kan jy nie 'n huweliksbeampte (matrimonial officer) raak sonder om aan 'n kerk te behoort nie of as jy 'n hofamptenaar is (maar dis nie dieselfde reg as wat geloofs leiers en even tradisionele leiers het om troues te mag waarneem nie)

Ons het wel sekulere wedding celebrants en watookal anders hulle hulself noem, maar om een te word moet jy oorspronklik steeds die knie buig of some werk in die hof he.

Ons het wel vordering gemaak met dinge soos die civil union act, maar dis steeds nie dieselfde ding as die ander twee wette wat altwee hul unies huwelike noem, verder mag leiers in hul groepies mense trou, geloofsleiers mag jou natuurlik ook trou onder die civil union act, maar daar is geen standaard om te toon dat die persoon wat bevoeg is om jou te trou 'n 'gerespekteerde persoon" in die gemeenskap is sonder om een of ander kerkbande te he of sonder om 'n hof amptenaar te wees nie
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Online brianvds

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Vulcan: Mar wat presies is 'n kerk? Wat as jy jou eie een stig? Tel die Church of Satan? Wat van die Universal Life Church (waarvan ek nou al jare 'n trotse pastoor is)? :-)


Offline The Vulcan

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LOL - ek het al vergeet ek het eenmaal ook geregistreer op daai universal life church - maar ja dink dis maar 'n joke in ons land, dink nie die staat lig eers 'n wenkbrou oor sulke goed nie.

Nee wat, as jy nie aan 'n erkende geloofs instansie of aan 'n tradisionele groep behoort met 'n chief nie, beteken dit maar bra min, het al op 'n kol gekommunikeer met die departement van binnelandse sake oor hierdie onderwerp en hulle was duidelik oor wat hulle verwag van iemand wat vir daai trou beampte/ "marriage officer" wil registeer - jy moet wel by hulle some eksamentjie of iets afle, maar as jy nie die regte backing het nie dan is dit maar tot daarnatoe.

Dis een gebied waar ek voel die ongelowiges/humaniste/ateiste/ens gemeenskap  openlik deur ons land wette teen ons gediskrimineer word, ek sal graag nog aksie hierteen wil neem of skenkings maak aan 'n organisasie wat vir sulke dinge baklei - ek is seker dat die grondwet ons al die tools gee om teen hierdie diskrimninasie te baklei.

Dit lyk my die trou seremonie behoort aan die kerk, en nie soos dit behoort te wees, 'n algemene reg nie, die regering en die official geloofs/tradisie organisasies is kop-in-een-mis.

Jou enigste alternatief is om 'n hofamptenaar te word of om geloof maar tydelik aan te neem en geordineer word en by die regte klub inkom, even sou jy jou eie kerk stig sal jy sekerlik moet kan bewys dis 'n actual kerk met mense en moet jy seker aan een van die onafhanklike kerke assosiasies lidmaatskap verkry

Of 'n mens moet ateisme/humanisme as 'n geloof verklaar en so kerk storie stig :)

Jy kan altyd ook maar die UU roete gaan.

Ek se nie ons land het 'n tekort aan sekulere altenrnatiewes nie - daar is talle mense wat hulself uitgee as sekulere sermonie beamptes - my issue is meer rondom hoe hulle daai lisensie moet bekom.


Hier is geselekteerde dele van wat ek nog in my inbox oor het van my kommunikasies met die mense:
Quote

....
How do I or someone of my choosing become a marriage officer, noting my non-religiousity and seeking a secular wedding ceremony that's not performed in a magistrate's court/DHA/religious institution, complying with the Act and which is equal and fair to me as a SA citizen.

....
Unfortunately to become a marriage officer an application has to be logged via the controlling body of a church and as an individual you will not be able to apply for yourself.  Feel free to contact Ms Maria Mthimunye on 012 810 6326, [email protected] for more information


dis die crux van die kommunikasies met die DHA. Dit was in 2012 daardie aanhaling van my is 'n opsommingstuk van my ondersoek met verdere attachments van discussions met ander mense wat dit dit die saak verwys het na die huweliks afdeling toe.



 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 20:01:59 pm by The Vulcan »
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Online brianvds

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Jou enigste alternatief is om 'n hofamptenaar te word of om geloof maar tydelik aan te neem en geordineer word en by die regte klub inkom, even sou jy jou eie kerk stig sal jy sekerlik moet kan bewys dis 'n actual kerk met mense en moet jy seker aan een van die onafhanklike kerke assosiasies lidmaatskap verkry

Dit is op hierdie punt waat die Amerikaners die ding reg doen - die staat kan hom nie aanmatig om te besluit wat 'n "regte" kerk of geloof is nie. Selfs 'n Pastafariër behoort mense te kan trou. :-)

Daar is eintlik 'n bietjie van 'n ironie hier. As ek dit reg verstaan, word pare wat bloot saamwoon en nooit formeel trou nie, nietemin deur die staat beskou as getroud, vir sekere doeleindes. Jy kan bv. nie jou saamblymaat bloot uit die huis skop nie; die ding word deur die staat soos 'n tipe skeisaak hanteer. As jy en jou lewensmaat dan boonop in 'n heeltemal informele seremonie deur 'n familievriend "getrou" het, is dit dan sekerlik selfs sterker getuienis dat die verhouding nou soos 'n skeisaak moet eindig, en jy straks bv. onderhoud sal moet betaal aan jou voormalige lewensmaat, en as daar kinders is, sekere regte van toesig ens. sal kan onderhandel.

M.a.w. die staat erken REEDS informele "huwelike" as "regte" huwelike. Dit sal die ding baie minder kompleks maak as enigiemand kan registreer as huweliksbeampte.


Offline Jacques

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I don't understand much of what I'm quoting below, but for interest, the FSI is recognised as eligible to officiate marriages, and I am a marriage officer under that "denomination". So there's at least one fully secular organisation that's achieved recognition.

LOL - ek het al vergeet ek het eenmaal ook geregistreer op daai universal life church - maar ja dink dis maar 'n joke in ons land, dink nie die staat lig eers 'n wenkbrou oor sulke goed nie.

Nee wat, as jy nie aan 'n erkende geloofs instansie of aan 'n tradisionele groep behoort met 'n chief nie, beteken dit maar bra min, het al op 'n kol gekommunikeer met die departement van binnelandse sake oor hierdie onderwerp en hulle was duidelik oor wat hulle verwag van iemand wat vir daai trou beampte/ "marriage officer" wil registeer - jy moet wel by hulle some eksamentjie of iets afle, maar as jy nie die regte backing het nie dan is dit maar tot daarnatoe.

Dis een gebied waar ek voel die ongelowiges/humaniste/ateiste/ens gemeenskap  openlik deur ons land wette teen ons gediskrimineer word, ek sal graag nog aksie hierteen wil neem of skenkings maak aan 'n organisasie wat vir sulke dinge baklei - ek is seker dat die grondwet ons al die tools gee om teen hierdie diskrimninasie te baklei.

Dit lyk my die trou seremonie behoort aan die kerk, en nie soos dit behoort te wees, 'n algemene reg nie, die regering en die official geloofs/tradisie organisasies is kop-in-een-mis.

Jou enigste alternatief is om 'n hofamptenaar te word of om geloof maar tydelik aan te neem en geordineer word en by die regte klub inkom, even sou jy jou eie kerk stig sal jy sekerlik moet kan bewys dis 'n actual kerk met mense en moet jy seker aan een van die onafhanklike kerke assosiasies lidmaatskap verkry

Of 'n mens moet ateisme/humanisme as 'n geloof verklaar en so kerk storie stig :)

Jy kan altyd ook maar die UU roete gaan.

Ek se nie ons land het 'n tekort aan sekulere altenrnatiewes nie - daar is talle mense wat hulself uitgee as sekulere sermonie beamptes - my issue is meer rondom hoe hulle daai lisensie moet bekom.


Hier is geselekteerde dele van wat ek nog in my inbox oor het van my kommunikasies met die mense:
Quote

....
How do I or someone of my choosing become a marriage officer, noting my non-religiousity and seeking a secular wedding ceremony that's not performed in a magistrate's court/DHA/religious institution, complying with the Act and which is equal and fair to me as a SA citizen.

....
Unfortunately to become a marriage officer an application has to be logged via the controlling body of a church and as an individual you will not be able to apply for yourself.  Feel free to contact Ms Maria Mthimunye on 012 810 6326, [email protected] for more information


dis die crux van die kommunikasies met die DHA. Dit was in 2012 daardie aanhaling van my is 'n opsommingstuk van my ondersoek met verdere attachments van discussions met ander mense wat dit dit die saak verwys het na die huweliks afdeling toe.



 


Offline The Vulcan

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Well the US isn't that perfect, for one thing, I don't think they legalize polygamy, whereas we do, though I'm not sure where the law stands if it's the other way around like polyamarous relationships (and what about multi-partner lgbt marriages, if that's even a thing)

This sense of complacency with the status quo is what I'm frustrated with, you know the idea of "dont rock the boat" I think that is one of the drivers for us as a secular community not having many alternatives when it comes to lobby groups for our interests, isn't it? That's why I really admire what you're doing Jacques, save for your activism, I am really unaware of any other activists/lobby groups for secular interests, don't think many people know how to get involved in activism and stuff, I speak for myself at least.

I understand you are trying to make the fsi like some sort of umbrella organization, does that then mean that other members/member groups can obtain the same rights to become licenced marriage officers through their membership to the fsi? That would be something, It seems there's at least one less thing to complain about :)

I understand the take on long-term relationships in the same way,brian, but still I don't think it's the same as a marriage, just like civil unions are also not seen as marriages, well at least from the perspective of the church and religious people I've talked to, they seem to console themselves with the idea that for a "real" marriage the buck still stops at the church door
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 07:25:24 am by The Vulcan »
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Offline BoogieMonster

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Admin please split, we're way off topic but it's still an interesting discussion.

Well the US isn't that perfect, for one thing, I don't think they legalize polygamy

It's entirely illegal.

Quote
though I'm not sure where the law stands if it's the other way around like polyamarous relationships

The way I understand it, is that Polygamy laws relate to marriage. Polyamorous relationships shouldn't incur legal prejudice afaik. BUT, I'm curious what happens when you combine the two: what if one partner is married and has poly relationships? From my ignorant perspective, it would seem it prejudices that partner should there ever be a divorce... In some countries like the USA at least. I'm also quite curious what this would mean in SA.

In short, the law doesn't smile a lot on free love.

Quote
I understand the take on long-term relationships in the same way,brian, but still I don't think it's the same as a marriage, just like civil unions are also not seen as marriages, well at least from the perspective of the church and religious people I've talked to, they seem to console themselves with the idea that for a "real" marriage the buck still stops at the church door

I wish, I oh so wish, I could drill it into the skulls of friends and family that to me the word "marriage" means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Me and Majin are partners, in both our minds for good. I don't need sanction from the state nor any religious institution to make that "more real".
"Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground, Silly monkeys, give them thumbs, they make a club and beat their brother down. How they survive, so misguided, is a mystery. Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here" - Tool


Offline The Vulcan

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To me it's all about gross discrimination against people that don't conform to some Stone-Age views, always with the tribal mentality... ugh...

I see that under the subtitle (the wiki), South Africa, only the RCMA is mentioned for allowing polygamous marriages, think that might be outdated, as I'm sure that the Civil Union Act also makes provision for polygamous marriages - I think with specific mention to polygamous Muslim marriages and then that act makes some reference to the RCMA as well.

I've never drawn that conclusion about polygamy= marriage and polyamoury= relationship, sounds just like wordplay to me - as I understand polygamy is a less inclusive term that only relates to males having multiple female wives, whereas poly is more like a spectrum of types of relationships, though I'd definitely agree that swinging is just relationships and definitely not as a marital status.

Yeah, I know what you mean, if I tell someone I'm bi, then they're like "don't you mean you're confused/gay?" - and crap about you're living in sin, there's a reason why gay unions are not called marriages, but unions and partnerships, it's unnatural and against god's word and you should be familiar with this type of crappy justifications and bad reasoning, again - discrimination and hatefulness - and you think we are supposed to live in a country that values equality and supposedly against discrimination (seems it only has meaning in relation to sexism toward women and racism agaisnt blacks - even on a good day it's still a double standard)

Yes, admin please split, seems I unintentionally railroaded the topic at hand ;D
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