South African Skeptics

Religion in schools

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Offline Brian

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Off the topic somewhat...but who is God going to support for the Super 14...everytime a try is scored by Brian Habana or Pierre Spies and some others...the finger is high in the sky? sickening demonstratism. Keep it to yourselves poephols! ???
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Offline BoogieMonster

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who is God going to support for the Super 14

You'd have to check with your local bookie. I'm guessing God cares so much about tries being scored because he's a gambling addict, one that always wins.
"Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground, Silly monkeys, give them thumbs, they make a club and beat their brother down. How they survive, so misguided, is a mystery. Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here" - Tool


Offline Brian

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who is God going to support for the Super 14

You'd have to check with your local bookie. I'm guessing God cares so much about tries being scored because he's a gambling addict, one that always wins.
Naaw! he's gone fishing!
Never let the child in you die!


Offline singemonkey

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Things will definitely improve for these kids when they leave school.  Especially in university, religion may abound, but it certainly loses its dominance.  In UCT it was a joke (although not enough of one yet).

It would never cross my mind to accuse a parent of cowardice for avoiding the viciousness with which the religious will demand their unjust privileges.  I propose that we use baby steps - primarily focused on agitating for RE to be done on a sectarian basis within religion.  Draw attention to Catholic children forced to experience RE taught by non-Catholics.  Methodists taught by Anglicans, etc.

Taken against individual Christian sects, the non-religious are one of the biggest groups in the country (if not the biggest).  The problem comes when Christians of all sects forget about their usual antipathy to join against us.  Can we not find means to demand the rights of religious kids to be taught by those from within their sects ("This Anglican teacher is teaching that evolution is real and fits in with Christianity." or "This Baptist is teaching that gay people will go to hell.")?

Couldn't a strategy be devised to draw the attention to the common ground of children being indoctrinated by those with different views to their parents?  I think a lot of them want the same things we do.  How would they react to find that their kids were being taught Mormonism in school?  But the problem then is, if you have to provide separate instruction for each sect, it becomes infeasible, firstly, and secondly it becomes much harder to argue that atheist kids should be able to have their legitimate equivalent time.  We might even find allies among religious moderates who'd be prepared to push for their kind of religion to be co-taught at more fundamentalist schools.

In South Africa though, always baby steps.  I think if atheists were to have a public service campaign, the first step would be "good without god," because I'm sure the average Christian thinks that we endorse any kind of evil the moment we're not scared of the dictator in the sky.  The "Satanist" argument.


Offline StevoMuso

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In South Africa though, always baby steps.  I think if atheists were to have a public service campaign, the first step would be "good without god," because I'm sure the average Christian thinks that we endorse any kind of evil the moment we're not scared of the dictator in the sky.  The "Satanist" argument.
"Good without God" sounds brilliant. I will put my thoughts into this and maybe do something through Religion-Free Africa. Good idea - get public awareness up, initiate dialog, etc.  :)
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Offline Hermes

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BTW, I see Faerie's "vloermoer" (Reply #5) got stuck as a Google tag for this thread (see bottom of page).   Very educational!
My thoughts, my beliefs, my feelings are all in my brain.  My brain is going to rot. - Richard Dawkins


Offline Faerie

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I'm moerig.

My youngest lad applied the beginning of the year to be included in the leadership council - the way it works is that all the children have the opportunity to apply for a "job" on the leadership council, and all will be accepted. Certain duties are then dished out and if they complete said duties they will get "promoted" in their "jobs" and receive a purple shirt to indicate their promotion. Well, my lad didnt get his purple shirt start of the second term and in discussion with me indicated that he thought it was because he was late in reporting for duty one morning, we left it at that.

Come second term though, he put all in to achieve the longed for purple shirt, he volunteered for extra duties and I did the whole pick-up and drop-off thing over week-ends and evenings to aid him in his goal.  He was overseen again this term, so I phoned the school now and enquire their reasoning. Oh-sorry, he doesnt attend the bible study group that was established for the leadership council and therefor it excludes him from progression......

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGG GGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jissis it makes me furious.


Offline mdg

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Jesus Christ, what a load of horseshit!

Faerie, does their leadership council have some sort of "constituion"? Does it say that atheists are excluded?
This looks like an opportunity to bring up the topic of discriminating against other people's beliefs or lack thereof. Do Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Hari Krishna kids get passed over when it comes to "promotions"?

mdg
“Yes, reason has been a part of organized religion, ever since two nudists took dietary advice from a talking snake.”
~ Jon Stewart


Offline Brian

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you're justified in your moerig-hate: I would write a letter to the Governing Board and advise them that this type of discrimination is unconstitutional and unfair in the education of a child. Maybe somebody needs to take this further in a test case!  
Never let the child in you die!


Offline Faerie

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I've made an appointment to go see the headmaster as well as the council's managers (teachers), and their explanations will have to be damn good. He already buckled under pressure to read a passage from the bible during assembly in the mornings (he justified it to himself/me that regardless of what he reads, at least he's getting experience in speaking in front of crowds-and I let him be on that one).  They are aware of his secular status - and he himself describes himself as an evolutionist, and they certainly did not tell either of us that by not joining the study group he will be bypassed for promotion, if that was the case, he most likely would'nt have applied for the position in the first place.  Its just the DISAPPOINTMENT of a 14 year old who still believes that the world is a good and just place. It makes me want to fold up into a blob of jelly and cry for him.


Offline GCG

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gooi sister.
that is discrimination, pure and simple.  if he had been an indian boy, and a hindu, would he have been passed over too?
that is epic bullshit, and makes me as moerig as you are.
thank bob i dont have kids, they would expell me from school, never mind the kid.
I'm too old for imaginary friends


Offline Brian

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Maybe you also need to consider (sure you have already) that such 'promotion' is not worth it if based on value systems imposed by others with which you disagree.
Never let the child in you die!


Offline BoogieMonster

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You know, my first thought about reading this is: This purple shirt thing sounds hugely arbitrary to begin with...

BUT, if he wants to go for it, makes it a goal, and does so much effort for it, I admire him. Not a lot of people set out to CHASE their goals, leave alone 14yo's. Agreed, if they have a set of hoops, and he jumps through them, and they pass him because of a hoop they never said was there, AND are discriminating because of his religion, I would chase them with all I had.
"Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground, Silly monkeys, give them thumbs, they make a club and beat their brother down. How they survive, so misguided, is a mystery. Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here" - Tool


Offline Faerie

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You know, my first thought about reading this is: This purple shirt thing sounds hugely arbitrary to begin with...

True, but its big when you're 14 and in your final year of primary school.

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BUT, if he wants to go for it, makes it a goal, and does so much effort for it, I admire him. Not a lot of people set out to CHASE their goals, leave alone 14yo's. Agreed, if they have a set of hoops, and he jumps through them, and they pass him because of a hoop they never said was there, AND are discriminating because of his religion, I would chase them with all I had.

He's a good lad, but its the second time this year alone that religion became an issue for him, earlier this year both his best friends "unfriended" him because of his lack of religion. He's been a rogue ever since, and now this happens. I keep on attempting to keep his spirits up with the fact that there's only an effective three months left for him in this school and the high school he's going to, doesnt occupy itself with this type of nonsense.

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Maybe you also need to consider (sure you have already) that such 'promotion' is not worth it if based on value systems imposed by others with which you disagree
Basically what we'll be discussing tonight, I'll rope him in to help with supper, its where we have the most meaningful conversations usually.

*sigh*


Offline Brian

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Very difficult when you're 14 even when you're 41 when you're the odd one out. It takes guts to be different...hats off to him!
Never let the child in you die!